Contact

I'm always glad to hear from people who read the site.

If you're interested in talking to me for whatever reason, please feel free to contact me using the Contact form above or directly at lar@wezen-ball.com.

Oh, and don't forget, you can always use the Forums!

Follow Me

facebook_64Twitter_64rss_64

Search

Latest Forum Posts

Sporting News Baseball Guide & Record Book online
by Luke Gofannon 2010/01/08 08:45
Welcome to the Wezen-Ball.com Forums
by lar @ wezen-ball 2009/08/20 06:24

Baseball Bloggers Alliance

bba-sml

Other Links

Online Flowers
Shop for your flowers online at the Online Flowers shop

Party Bets
Wanna make baseball a tad more exciting? Check out Party Bets. They have some of the largestonline sports betting rooms online. Plus you can just play for fun instead of cash.

Has Tony La Russa Done Enough with the Talent he was Given? E-mail
Written by Larry Granillo   
Monday, 19 October 2009 21:17

A couple of weeks back, Esquire published an article by Charles Pierce called "The Smartest Man in Baseball is an Idiot". It received a fair amount of attention around the internet when it was published. In essence, the piece argued that, while highly regarded as one of the best and brightest managers in baseball, Tony La Russa has been nothing special in the postseason and, thus, he is not worthy of all the praise that he gets. The article has plenty of flaws - it doesn't give much analysis and it's filled with personal attacks and insults that leave no illusion about the author's feelings - but the crux of his position did start an interesting debate.

At websites that discussed the article, like Baseball Think Factory and Circling the Bases, the conversation seemed to center on two points-of-view: either the author is right because, although La Russa owns two World Series rings, he has not done enough with all of the talent that he's been given over the years, or, the author is wrong because the playoffs are just a crap-shoot and anything can happen in a short series (or five), no matter how great your team is. There wasn't much room for compromise between those two sides.

After reading the debates, I began to wonder if there was any way to measure or check these points of view. It occurred to me that my newly purchased Rally's Historical WAR database might be just the thing. By measuring the Total WAR values for each of La Russa's (and other managers') ballclubs, we could get a sense of just how much talent he had to work with. Was the average Tony La Russa team comparable in talent to the average Earl Weaver team, for example? Casey Stengel? What about their World Series winning teams - how do they compare?

We could also look at a select group of "winning" managers and compare their career arcs. Is it true, as some claim, that La Russa won less with the level of talent he was given than others? How often do great managers take full advantage of the players they are given?

With those questions in mind, I set to work on the Rally WAR database. For every manager in history, I tallied the total WAR values of the players that played on each of their teams. I then calculated a few values that I thought were interesting: the highest, lowest, and average WAR values for his squads, the number of World Series wins and losses, and the number of MVP-caliber seasons his hitters and pitchers put up over the course of his managing career (MVP-caliber = 7.0+ WAR). Here, then, are the top ten managers with the highest average WAR per team (ten years managing or more):

(click "Read More" to continue reading)

Manager Years Average Team WAR WS Wins WS Losses MVP-Caliber Hitters MVP-Caliber Pitchers
Joe McCarthy 24 44.18 7 2 21 3
Billy Southworth 13 40.57 2 2 4 3
Frank Selee 16 39.26 0 0 2 13
Earl Weaver 17 39.11 1 3 3 2
Walter Alston 23 38.98 4 3 5 7
Davey Johnson 14 38.61 1 0 1 2
Jimy Williams 12 37.06 0 0 3 2
Frank Chance 11 37.04 2 2 4 5
John McGraw 34 36.28 3 6 15 10
Leo Durocher 26 36.03 1 2 8 5

It should be noted that partial manager seasons (ie, when a manager either replaces or is replaced by another manager mid-season) are not distinguished from full seasons. For all the managers named below, these partial seasons do little to affect the overall data. I did not check any other managers, though, so I can't say how they're affected by partial seasons.

But I didn't want to stop there. The table was useful, but it couldn't illustrate everything that I was hoping to convey. So I took a small subset of those managers - I tried to choose both all-time greats and more contemporary managers who would be considered La Russa's main competition - and graphed them by total team WAR. The graph below shows the total WAR values for these select managers, ranked from the highest total value to the lowest (I stole that idea from the WAR graphs over at Beyond the Box Score). Click on the graph to see it full size.

MGR_WAR

The graph is a little hard to read in those first ten or so years, but, if you look close, it begins to clear up. The top-most lines - Torre, McGraw, and Weaver - tell us that those three had the best teams on a consistent basis (and the fact that McGraw's line is higher than everyone's at just about every point shows you just how good those teams were). That makes La Russa's line all the more notable. Of all the managers shown on this graph, La Russa is the one with the worst top-three seasons. It isn't until you get to his 4th- through 8th-best seasons that any of the others drop below his line. For someone whose biggest critics say that "he hasn't done enough" with the talent given him, it's quite interesting to see that "the talent he was given" is less than many others.

But let's look a little deeper at some of these managers. If Joe Torre or Sparky Anderson have such better talent to work with on a consistent basis, why do we remember them as great managers?

Joe Torre's career, as shown by Total Team WAR:

mgr_torre

Sparky Anderson:

mgr_sparky

Joe McCarthy (who is not included on the main graph above):

mgr_mccarthy

The red dots on these graphs represent World Series victories, while the white dots show World Series losses. The common thread between these three graphs - and the main reason these three are remembered as great managers, I believe - is all that red on the left of the charts. These are three managers who, when they were given an historically great team, got the job done. Not only were they able to take these great teams to the World Series, they were also able to lead them to the title.

Contrast that with Tony La Russa's career graph:

mgr_larussa

That's a lot of white on the left of that graph. With La Russa, the feeling seems to be that he hasn't been able to do enough with the talent that he's had. You can really understand why some people say that when you see this chart. Yes, he has two World Series titles, but he's also lost three others - and those three losses all came while he was managing historically great teams. I can only imagine the kind of things that people would be saying about him today if he was sitting around with five rings...

So is that fair? Is La Russa an anomaly in the history of managers, or are there others who had a hard time winning with their great teams? I compiled information on a few other managers (I expanded the list of eight above to about 17) to get a better comparison. You can see that table here, or view the corresponding charts by clicking the links below.

As you can see, the track record of elite managers when it comes to taking their historically great teams all the way to the championship is a little spotty. There are certainly the Stengel's and Anderson's of the world, who seemed to win every time they had a great team to work with, but there are also the Bobby Cox's or Whitey Herzog's or John McGraw's, who had a hard time of it. Tony La Russa may have had a hard time winning the big one with his greatest teams, but it hardly makes him unique in that regard. We only think he is because we remember those losses so vividly.

When I started this study, I was on the fence about La Russa and his place in history. If I had to come down on any side of the argument that was brought up in the Esquire article, I probably would've agreed with the author that Tony just hadn't done enough with the talent he was given to be considered a genius. But after looking at all this data - the fact that La Russa's average team WAR has been middle of the road and that he is hardly alone in losing the big one with the best teams - I have to change that opinion. I don't know if he's a genius or not, but you certainly can't count his postseason failures against him. That's just the nature of being a manager. (His hairspray, though?... ;-)



Digg! Reddit! Facebook! Technorati! StumbleUpon! BallHype: hype it up!
Comments (4)Add Comment
0
...
written by Ian W., October 21, 2009
Great article, but I have a question. Since WAR is a stat that accumulates with more games played, does that hurt the value of teams in strike-shortened seasons? For Bobby Cox's chart the 1995 Braves fall right in the middle. While I don't think they were necessarily his best team, I'd imagine they rank a little higher than that. Same with the 1981 Dodgers on Tommy Lasorda's chart. I have a hard time believing the 1988 team was better. I don't think it changes anything you've written here, I was just wondering about it.
0
...
written by heyblue, October 21, 2009
WAR also doesn't account for a manager playing the wrong guy. For instance, Torre playing Jeter over A-Rod at short. Conceivably, the Yankees of 03-06 could have had a greater accumulated WAR with A-Rod at short and Jeter somewhere else, and, conceivably, they could've won the World Series that way, too. So how do we determine if Torre got the most out of those Yankee teams and/or if some other manager could've done better? I don't know if there is an answer to this question, I'm just asking.
lar @ wezen-ball
...
written by lar @ wezen-ball, October 21, 2009
Good point, Ian. I saw someone mention that same thing somewhere else, and I have to say that the data does not take that into account. I generally try to account for strike-shortened seasons somehow, but it slipped my mind in this case. Like you said, I don't think it changes the analysis, but it'd be nice to better reflect it in the graphs.

And, heyblue, that's a great point too. There were certainly problems that I saw with using the team WAR as an indicator, and that was one of them. But I'm just not sure there's a way to figure that out right now. I picked WAR as the metric because, to me, it's the best single indicator of a player's talent/value but, since it's based on time played (ie, it's a counting stat), it's subject to those weaknesses.

If there was a way to measure a player's ability that wasn't directly tied to his service time, position, and in-season production, i'd use it. Career stats don't work because then you have to deal with super-young and super-old players (eg, Earl Weaver shouldn't be given Cal Ripken's career stats when evaluating the 1981 season, and Alex Grammas shouldn't get Hank Aaron's career stats when evaluating the 1976 season. It's a tough thing to find.

But, even if we did find something like that, do you think the results would ever say anything different?
0
Then there is talent evaluation
written by mikkyld, October 22, 2009
Managers are responsible for good and bad choices - like trading haren over reyes agains his HoF pitching coach's advice. Just not sure how you'd ever put a number on that other than my lament that the cards would have been serious WS contenders every year had they kept haren

Write comment

busy
 

About Bloguin

Bloguin is the revolutionary blog network specifically focused on helping bloggers get the most out of their websites. We're currently working on building a large network of online communities and hope to expand our blogging coverage to include a wide range of topics.

Advertisers

The Bloguin Network allows advertisers to promote their products and services to our ever-growing number of visitors. We offer both site-specific ad placements as well as the ability to run a network-wide campaign. If you're interested in working with Bloguin to meet your advertising needs, please contact us.

Bloggers Wanted

The Bloguin Network is always looking to expand. We're specifically looking for blogs in the sports, entertainment, and video games field, but are open to adding any type of quality site. If you're a blogger and interested in joining our network, please fill out our application form.

The Bloguin Login

The Bloguin Login gives you full access to everything our network has to offer. Your name and password will work for each and every one of our sites. Signing up is simple, and will allow you to post in all our forums, create member blogs, and access other cool features! What are you waiting for? Create an Account!